|
| |
getting_divorced
|
|
|
pipedream
|
what's it like for women? not being morbid. am trying to research real people and real situations. for a novella i'm writing.
is there a moment when you just know that this is it, it is enough...how do you decide? where does the courage com from?
|
060719
|
| |
... |
|
|
brain stew
|
wish i could help, but i've never even been kissed.
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
brain stew
|
wish i could help, but i've never even been kissed.
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
p2
|
courage?
or cowardice?
it's easier to run
than to deal with the problem
does not believe in divorce
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
tell that to the many women who seek divorce due to domestic violence/spousal abuse
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
http://justicecanada.ca/en/ps/fm/spouseafs.html
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
p2
|
i didn't choose their spouse
they did
if the spouse is abusive
send them to jail
if the spouse continues to be abusive
continue to send them to jail
unless you're talking about
arranged marriages
which is completely different
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
p2
|
plus not all divorces are due to spousal abuse
i'd wager the most common reason is
"irreconcilable differences"
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
"29% of ever-married Canadian women and 50% of divorced women have been victims of abuse."
"domestic violence is an important factor in divorce decisions: women who are abused are significantly more likely to divorce than women in non-violent marriages"
"divorce rates for women abused in first marriages are dramatically different than those for non-abused women: while the divorce rate for non-abused women is 15%, women who experienced high severity abuse in a first marriage have a divorce rate of 75%"
- Domestic Violence, Employment and Divorce
qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/faculty/seitz/abuse09.pdf
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
"There is no specific legislation against domestic violence in Albania."
"When women try to seek help, they rarely gain protection or justice because of the authorities’ reluctance to take action.
In the absence of a law criminalizing domestic violence, the police generally fail to recognize violence in the family as a criminal matter and fail to investigate allegations of domestic violence. One woman described how the police failed to respond to her repeated calls for help after her husband beat her. "I called every hour, every hour and a half. The police officer said, ‘Don’t call us, don’t you feel embarrassed?’… and then he insulted me. I never again called the police."
"Instead of lodging criminal complaints against their abusive partners, women tend to escape violent marriages through divorce.
Although domestic violence is a major factor in many divorce cases, women generally choose not to raise this in proceedings. Their reasons include the shame that a public disclosure would bring on their family and the difficulty in proving their case. In 511 divorce cases brought before the Tirana First Instance Court in 2000, domestic violence was cited as a cause in only 39 cases, and figures for 2001 to 2004 are comparable.(4)
In Shkodra, staff at the Hapat e Lehtё counselling and advice centre said that judges refuse to recognize domestic violence as a factor in divorce cases, and that, consequently, domestic violence appears not to exist."
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR110052006?open&of=ENG-312
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
"Women’s lack of equal access to divorce has acute consequences for victims of domestic violence. Unequal access to divorce prevents women from extricating themselves from violent relationships and may make them more vulnerable to abuse in the first place. The fact that women have no easy way of ending their marriages empowers some men to abuse women with almost no chance that they would ever be prosecuted for a crime or suffer any adverse consequences whatsoever. By fostering a system of unequal divorce, Egypt’s divorce laws ultimately facilitate violence against women.
Egyptian women are afforded little escape from their abusive spouses. In fact, Egypt’s Criminal Code condones acts of violence committed in “good faith,” which is often used to justify domestic violence for “disciplinary reasons.” The few shelters the Egyptian government operates for victims of domestic violence and those seeking to escape troubled marriages raise serious concerns about their true protective mandate. Shelter staff sometimes refuse to admit women brought in by the police, and see their mandate as one of reconciliation rather than the provision of refuge. Moreover, the overwhelming majority of women Human Rights Watch interviewed did not know that these shelters existed. The combined effects of unequal access to divorce, laws permitting spousal abuse, the lack of any mechanism to protect women from further violence, and the inadequate and often unknown nature of shelters ultimately condemns many Egyptian women to violent marriages."
http://hrw.org/reports/2004/egypt1204/6.htm
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
is there a law in canada (or the us for that matter) that can send a spouse to jail specifically for emotional abuse?
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
"It is generally understood that emotional abuse is not against the law in Canada. For the most part, when we consider the broad range of emotional abuse behaviours that are used to control a woman, this is true. In an interview with Philip Enright, we learned about the conditions where emotional abuse can be either prosecuted, or used as additional evidence to determine the outcome of violent charges.:"
http://www.womanabuseprevention.com/html/criminal_law.html
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
"...forms of emotional abuse such as insulting, isolating, infantilizing, humiliating, and ignoring, although serious, are not criminal behaviours and cannot be prosecuted under the Criminal Code of Canada"
- what is emotional abuse?
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/html/fvemotion_e.html
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
from the above url
|
"Many women in physically abusive relationships feel that the emotional abuse is more severely debilitating than the physical abuse in the relationship.
Repeated verbal abuse such as blaming, ridiculing, insulting, swearing, yelling and humiliation has long-term negative effects on a woman's self-esteem and contributes to feelings of uselessness, worthlessness and self-blame.
Threatening to kill or physically harm a female partner, her children, other family members or pets establishes dominance and coercive power on the part of the abuser. The female partner feels extreme terror, vulnerability and powerlessness within the relationship. This type of emotional abuse can make an abused woman feel helpless and isolated.
Jealousy, possessiveness and interrogation about whereabouts and activities are controlling behaviours which can severely restrict a female partner's independence and freedom. Social and financial isolation may leave her dependent upon the abuser for social contact money and the necessities of life.
Emotional abuse can have serious physical and psychological consequences for women, including severe depression, anxiety, persistent headaches, back and limb problems, and stomach problems.
Women who are psychologically abused but not physically abused are five times more likely to misuse alcohol than women who have not experienced abuse."
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
i'm not saying all divorces are due to abuse
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
"An annual study in the UK...estimates the main causes of divorce based on surveys of matrimonial lawyers...
The main causes in 2004 (2003) were:
* Extra-marital affairs - 27% (29%)
* Family strains - 18% (11%)
* Emotional/physical abuse - 17% (10%)
* Mid-life crisis - 13% (not in 2003 survey)
* Addictions, e.g. alcoholism and gambling - 6% (5%)
* Workaholism - 6% (5%)
According to this survey, men engaged in extra-marital affairs in 75% (55%) of cases; women in 25% (45%). In cases of family strain, women's families were the primary source of strain in 78%, compared to 22% of men's families.
Emotional and physical abuse were more evenly split, with women affected in 60% and men in 40% of cases. In 70% of workaholism-related divorces it was men who were the cause, and 30% women. The 2004 survey found that 93% of divorce cases were petitioned by women, very few of which were contested."
- wikipedia
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
for some women it is a matter of agreeing/accepting the divorce rather than deciding to leave/terminate the marriage
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
rhin
|
p2, please tell me/anyone that you didn't really mean any of that?
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
rhin
|
have you ever been on the other end of an abusive relationship?
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
rhin
|
nevermind. not getting into this. carry on.
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
"it's all very complex"
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
good luck with your novella pipedream
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
sorry for all the pasting
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
walrie
|
people change
|
060720
|
| |
... |
|
|
p2
|
plus not all divorces are due to spousal abuse
i'd wager the most common reason is
"irreconcilable differences"
|
060721
|
| |
... |
|
|
p2
|
sorry for the re-post
wrong button
|
060721
|
| |
... |
|
|
p2
|
ok, seriously,
albania and egypt?
perhaps we can stick to talking about
countries where both genders are considered equals
http://countrystudies.us/egypt/64.htm
"Rural and lower-class Egyptians generally believed that women were morally inferior to men. Women were expected to defer to senior male relatives, to avoid contact with men who were not kin, and to veil themselves in public. As children, women learned to accept their dependency on their fathers and older brothers. After marriage women expected their husbands to make all decisions."
this nonsense is a cultural issue
take it up with their societies
also
perhaps it's because i'm a fighter
but i think that "emotional abuse"
is a case of
"sticks and stones
may break my bones
but words will never hurt me"
that abuse only has power
if you let it
rhin
i don't understand how a person
can make a decision about marriage
without knowing enough about a person
to see signs of abusiveness
btw
"other end"?
which end did you think i started off at?
yes
people change
but if people are still dedicated to their relationship
i fully believe that things can be worked out
the possiblity of divorce, though,
gives them a reason not to try
there's too much to respond to
as i have much work to do
and many bills to get paid
i'll come back later
to address the statistics
and the heaps of hate
that will be flung my way
|
060721
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
yes seriously
pd asked "what's it like for women"
not "what's it like for women" "in countries where both genders are considered equals"
i'm having a hard time trying to think of a country where both genders are fully considered equal.
the point of my posting info from albania and eqypt when i found it as i found it was to bring to attention some of the difficulties women currently face in countries where divorce or police protection isn't as 'easy'/available as it is in canada, where i am of course writing from.
it's a big world with a lot of women and i find it helps me (when thinking about womens/human rights) to look at the broader picture rather than just 'my backyard'.
while every nation has its society, every nation is also part of the greater world community.
sadly, abuse is something experienced by both genders in all societies (that i am aware of).
which only makes sense to me since we all came from the same human tree...)
no doubt abuse is something that has been going on since we were just a small family.)
i'd be interested in hearing about the experinces of women in the country where i think pipedream might be writing from.
when it comes to recognizing womens rights, canada has come a long way,..but it still has a ways to go in my opinion.
did you know that "Sexual assault within relationships has been illegal in Canada since 1983, however many people still do not recognize it as a crime."
only since 1983! i'm shocked everytime i think about it.
"In Canada during 1990, an average of two women every week were killed by their partners. Researchers and professionals working with assaulted women estimate that each year one in eight women, living in a relationship with a man, will be assaulted. In
addition, research indicates that as many as 35 violent episodes may have occurred before a woman seeks police intervention.
In the past, the justice system response has been to consider “spouse assault” primarily a domestic or social problem, which is best handled outside the criminal justice system. In practice, that has meant criminal justice personnel often directed a couple towards counselling or conciliation services rather than dealing with the criminal nature of the assault. That approach has been ineffective in reducing the incidence of violence
against women in relationships and has been inadequate in terms of protecting women.
As a result of a lack of understanding of the dynamics of wife abuse, the criminal justice system response has often created secondary victimization of women victims. In many cases which are reported to the criminal justice system women are blamed for the violence they experience – by the police because the woman may seem hysterical, violent or intoxicated; by Crown counsel because the woman may desire the husband back in the family home or may have failed to leave the situation; or by the court
because the woman may refuse to testify."
- Part 1, Violence Against Women In Relationships Policy,
British_Columbia Ministry of Attorney General Policy On the Criminal Justice System Response To Violence Against Women And Children - March 2004
http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/vawc/vawir.pdf
i'm not throwing any hate your way p2. we obviously disagree on some things, but i certainly don't hate you for expressing your opinion. i don't hate you at all.
i apologize for my inability to put my own words together instead of relying on others' text to help me convey what i'm trying to say. but i do find it interesting to search&read about this.
personally i think it was courageous of my mother to run from her first husband. i'm glad she did. i might not've been born otherwise.
the old "you made your bed" expression quite saddens me really in this context
|
060721
|
| |
... |
|
|
rhin
|
'a caring and loving husband who kept to himself with no outward signs of the violence and depravity he had hidden deep within him' -Sonia & Peter Sutcliffe were 'an item' 8 years before marrying. While just 6 months into Sonia & Peter's marriage, he initiated his reign of terror as The Yorkshire Ripper. Did she know? If she in fact did after the first victim (as some has hinted at due to her lack of emotion during questioning), why did he continue to hide his 'other side' from her? Some people do change. Sometimes it's environmental factors...sometimes, ghosts or rememberances of the past began playing with their minds.
ghosts or memories i believe played a big part with the guy i had married. after over a year together and 6 months into marriage, things weren't all we had hoped. a person's true colors began to emerge, and in the monotony of daily routine of actually living with that person day in and day out you either discover that it's everything you had hoped, or you sit and think 'what the hell have i done!' sometimes you just don't know a person well enough. in early relationships, and/or relationships building into a marriage, you are in the honeymoon phase. it's so exciting and new, and nothing has yet become routine/boring.
'it's easier to run than to deal with the problem'? one/half of the relationship can work all he/she wants on the problem, but it takes two people to solve it. some victims of spousal abuse have absolutely no idea of an abusive side of the other half. at what point in the abuse/jail cycle does death factor in? one can't 'send' the spouse to jail if she's dead. how much is the abused spouse supposed to take? oh sure honey, you split my ribcage and threatened to slice my throat in my sleep, but after you're out of jail we'll work on it. oh sure i trust you...just like all the other times. i never believed in divorce either, but when the spouse has no history of abuse, and for over a year appears to be absolutely normal, you marry him. you move off of the mainland and a few months later, a monster emerges. how could i have known that? i don't even want to hear it, and no one in the same situation reading this should either. physical and extreme mental abuse aside, i totally agree that you shouldn't just walk away from an uncomfortable union without first getting to the root of any problem and trying to solve any problems. however, when you end up in a violent/probable death situation, get the hell out. he might return from jail to finish you off. i know first hand. it's not always so cut and dry. regardless of religious beliefs/personal morals, every human has a right to being treated as a human being should be treated. girls, women, alot of abusers abuse patterns occur in cycles and unless your spouse receives and fully accepts some serious therapy, then it will happen again. you will go through the stages of pure shock, then the tear stage, then the guilt stage, then the numb stage, then the fight or flight stage. don't let promises of good behavior, and/or gifts melt your heart. he will have gained control of your life, cut you off from your friends and family, guards the money like lion, and appears to everyone else to be the last gentle man on earth, but at some point you have to fight and take flight. get the hell out. you deserve to be safe, and no matter what, nothing that you ever said or did deserves abuse. do what you have to do. find that last little bit of courage hidden inside of you and decide to live again. God forbid, he may decide to come after you, threaten your family with death, etc. and that hanging over your head seems like a dead end, but work it out somehow, find help somewhere. figure out what measures you will take to gain back your freedom.
i had finally discovered years later of being free from him, that his father and mother had an abusive relationship towards each other. i came to the conclusion that because 6 months into our marriage things weren't great between us, that he became angry at me for what he saw as my attempt to turn our marriage into his parents marriage. so, he decided to beat me to the punchline. "rhin, you made us fucking late!" me: "::laughter:: we'll get there on time". he calmly told me to never laugh at him again. then he struck me with a dead-on closed-fisted punch to the face while he continued to drive down the road. i sat in total shock, my mind fogging and racing, my face swelling up and bleeding. once we reached our destination, i made no move to get out. he turned to me and said "what's wrong?" i stared blankly at him. he said 'incredulously' "are you still mad about that? come on." he squeezed my hand lovingly, and left me in the car, and told everyone that i wasn't feeling well, and he went to party for hours while i sat there with facial damage. i couldn't manage enough mental thought to seek medical help or safety. he was an angel for weeks after that - buying me whatever pleased me, etc. i surely thought it was just a bad dream and the surprise shock of it all convinced me that it would just never happen again. it did. and it did. and it did. and it did. and it did, etc. the gifts and sweetness finally ebbed, and he began threatening death, even planning it, also to my family. i had no access to funds. no one believed me at all. they all saw him as the last of the bigtime sweeties. i was almost half-way around the world, on a tiny island, and he was a dedicated, built like a brickhouse master sargeant. the only reason i'm still alive, and not pushed over the cliff as he had planned, was his cockiness finally got the better of him, when he told the 1st shirt of his squadron that he was going to kill me. they believed him. he is a part of my past that i rarely ever talk about. he tried for 3 years to find me after i left...breaking into businesses i worked at, threatening family, etc. it stopped after my brother stepped in and put him in the hospital, and spent 9 months in jail himself for doing so. i don't condone what my brother did, but i don't hate him for it. we were all so tired of living on edge, and watching our backs and fighting him off when he did manage to get too close. i learned to protect myself, and i'm well-armed. i never leave doors or cars un-locked. i close the blinds before sunset. i will probably never stop doing this. now, please tell me that i should have known all of this before marrying him, and that i should be 'working on it' with him? my life is much more important to me than the moral and/or religious ramifications or 'whatever else' of divorce. i made the right decision, and any other female should do exactly the same in a situation like that.
p2, i don't hate anyone, not even 'the monster'. this whole topic has brought out a part of my past that totally and emotionally sets me off. it's to be somewhat expected. it's a long time getting over. i'm not seeking pity or sympathy. i just wanted to let you walk a mile in my shoes. i don't regret my past. it has made me who i am today, and it gave me back Tony (if only for a little while). maybe my story will help another victim into finding her courage and getting help. sometimes you cross a point of no return. also, i will say this, what i remember the most from our relationship is the verbal attacks. my body healed without scar, but my mind is still trying to let it go. since he hasn't been heard from in quite some time, i've managed to let alot of it go, but sometimes it pops back into my life...like this topic. i couldn't let it go. i couldn't stand thinking of some girl/woman in an extremely abusive situation thinking 'we should try and work it out...when he's out of jail'.
|
060721
|
| |
... |
|
|
rhin
|
also, i wasn't stating opinion. you cannot work on a troubled relationship if abuse is involved. the abuser has to resolve his own personal issues and tendency to abuse before he/she can even began to work on the details of 'why aren't we getting along'. the abuser must seek help first. then, if miraculously it actually works, you can then talk about the relationship. i've said my peace.
|
060721
|
| |
... |
|
|
pipedream
|
wow, all of you...wow...thank you for your input.
rhin, you most of all. thank you for sharing that with all of us...two of my aunts were divorced because of their abusive husbands, and where i come from being divorced is something Decent Women don't do. you're supposed to compromise, you're supposed to stay for your kids and for your family, and if you don't then you're a selfish, heartless woman and are treated like a paragon by society, even the women who are in abusive relationships themselves and can't leave. my aunts were lucky becuae their father was rich enough to support them and their kids, but for the thousands of women who don't have that kind of financial support, they're stuck until they die with the man their family chose for them. there is no way you can 'know' what a man will turn out to be like once you've married him, even 'love marriages' as we call them here.
did people treat you differently, once you'd separated? i wonder if i'm asking the wrong culture, but its still relevant...did you want to go back sometimes? forgive me if i'm prying, nobody has to answer this if they don't want to :) even 'irreconciliable differences'; when one marries it's supposed to be forever..how do you overcome that 'till death do us part' clause, emotionally?
|
060722
|
| |
... |
|
|
rhin
|
i was afraid that everyone would call me a foolish girl, and that my family would be upset with me because they wanted me in college in the first place. so after that initial first punch, i put up with 2 1/2 more years of it. i was embarrassed. once i finally broke down and told my family they were angry with me for not being honest. they had a right to be. i should have put my trust in them. no one treated me differently. even though i live in God fearing country, the ones who knew were supportive. please realise that i was sort of in hiding for a few years. no one who knew me or my whereabouts talked about me. they all helped to protect me. whenever he returned home for family visits and was spotted, they immediately dropped what they were doing and located me to warn me. they still do this to this day...mostly out of habit i think. also understand that my religion is far more leniant than others. however, i grew up with the notion that it was till death do us part, in sickness and in health, etc.. it is the one reason i tell no one i'm divorced. i don't lie about it, i just don't volunteer the information. i did remarry years later, and he was told the truth about everything. he accepted it, but did not dwell on it. i think everyone just rather wanted me alive and quietly over-looked the 'divorce' word.
the only time i ever wanted the monster back was when he was believed about wanting to kill me. i was put under guard on the military base...alone in the house, and he was in serious trouble elsewhere. i was alone and i was scared. routine and the normalacy of everyday life no matter how horrible it may be is like a safety net and is comforting. at least i could count on being hit everyday. being left alone, i didn't know what was happening next. after approximately 2 1/2 weeks i become comfortable with being alone. it was the first time in my life. i loved throwing clothing on the floor, smashing a plate on the wall if i wanted, jamming the stereo - and no one around to stop me. i began giving myself pep speeches and kicking myself in the ass for even thinking of wanting him back. i still despise the divorce word, but i worked my way through it telling myself that God was more upset with him for attempting to kill me than he is for my divorcing him. i asked forgiveness, and that's all i can do. for the record, before my second marriage, we waited 7 (seven) years. we even lived together for 3 of those years prior to marriage to make sure there were no hidden monsters. i never wanted to divorce again. we were engaged for those 3 years. on our wedding day, he had already been diagnosed as terminally ill. everything seemed so bittersweet. maybe his death was my punishment for my first divorce, but that would be giving myself way too much credit. regardless i had all of those wonderful years with a great guy and nothing will ever take it away from me. had it not been for my divorce, i would have missed all of that. nothing will ever make me believe that i made the wrong decision.
|
060722
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
(Divorce Culture and Marital Gender Equality
A Cross-National Study
Carrie Yodanis
University of British Columbia, Vancouver
"This article examines the cross-national relationship between a divorce culture on a national level and gender equality in intact marriages. Based on multilevel analysis of data from 22 countries in the International Social Survey Programme, the results indicate that a divorce culture on the national level is associated with greater marital equality. In other words, in countries where divorce is accepted and practiced, the distribution of work between women and men in marriage is more equal. These findings support the enhanced equality hypothesis that the possibility of divorce provides women with leverage to gain more equal status within marriage."
http://gas.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/19/5/644
)
|
060722
|
| |
... |
|
|
p2
|
first
thank you rhin
for sharing
i'm happy
that you're happy
secondly
there exists a world
an ideal world
in my mind
and when that world
and the real world collide
it increases my misanthropy
it is from that ideal world
where my principles come from
and i understand that
they are not necessarily applicable
to this one
i would not hesitate
to advise divorce
to family
friends
strangers
who are in an abusive relationship
in fact
i'd probably insist upon it
my original statement
was more in response to
how trivialized marriage has become
while some divorces may be due to courage
plenty of others are not
lastly
i'd like to revise my statement to
"p2 does not believe in divorce for himself"
though that's easy for me to say
because i am not likely to be abused
emotionally or physically
|
060724
|
| |
... |
|
|
nom
|
thankyou for clarifying your position p2.
perhaps i could've asked "what about"
instead of saying "tell that to"
|
060724
|
| |
... |
|
|
pipedream
|
loves everyone for helping her
|
060724
|
| |
... |
|
|
pipedream
|
also loves everyone for their generosity and courage and wisdom
|
060724
|
| |
... |
|
|
minnesota_chris
|
haha and here I thought pipedream was getting divorced. No, she's writing a book about it! bahaahahaha!
|
061027
|
